Barca v Seattle Sounders match comments post
By: Kevin | August 5th, 2009Starting lineup: Pinto, Alves, Puyol, Abidal, Fontas, Abidal, VicSan, Busquets, Xavi, Henry, Krkic, Messi
Valdes and Marquez are nursing niggling little things, and Iniesta is still recovering from his injury/intestinal thing.
This one’s pretty close to a real-life starting XI, so we should see some interesting stuff tonight. Will our lads go up like a Space Needle?
Comment away, kids!
P.S. Corinne got Hectored this time! So Hector’s conspiracy theories go out the window. 
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I think Pedro’s crossing is better because he is ambidextrous and can cross with either foot from either side of the field.
Posted from
United States
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I was literally 18 inches from Joan Laporta last night — the entire Barca delegation walked right by me in the pre-match festivities.
Really fun game, and a LOT of Barca supporters. Messi is a god.
Posted from
United States -
Hi guys, I was at the Sounders game and it was a lot of fun. I even saw the players outside their hotel. For some cool pics and a couple of boring videos, click below:
http://fiverupees.blogspot.com/2009/08/videos-and-pictures-from-barcelona-vs.html
Posted from
United States -
COMPLETELY off topic, have you guys seen the revenue break down from the Champions League?
Page 6
United and Bayern got more $$ than Barca because of the ‘Market Pool’.
The League a team hails from carries a TV market value and you get a share of that based on what you qualified for the CL as (1st place from said League, 2nd etc.) and the number of games you played. Bayern Got 21M EU vs Barca’s 8M Eur.
I found this very interesting.
To tally:
Barca 30.9M (8.1/30.9 Market Pool the rest as win bonuses etc.)
Man U 38.2M (18.7 MP)
Bayern Munich 34.5M (21.4M)
Chelsea 30.9M (15.4M)Of note Inter got ~18M from the Market Pool while Madrid got 10M.
So Bundesliga Champ 21M
Dutch League 19M (PSV)
EPL Champ 18M
Serie A Champ 18M
Liga Champ 10MAlso note that Inter got as far as Madrid, and PSV did not make it out of the group stage.
Posted from
United States -
Firstly, as I emphasized before, I’m quite short of time these days so I’ll just quickly sort through some major points:
@ Ramzi: I do hope you have also watched the games and not just read the books. Otherwise it would be disappointing…personally, I’ve not got round to reading any of these books as 1. they’re not availible in my country and 2. I’m not much of a reader. What I say comes completely from my experience from watching them play. (I have all Ajax matches 70-74 + all matches from 70 and 74 world cup on cassettes.)
IMO it is perhaps why I differ from your POV. I have not heard these quotes before so I cannot argue them much. But what I will say is that atleast in the way his teams played, Rinus never emphasized possession the way Cruyff did. All the Totall Football teams had a bigger commitment to attack and creating opportunities than maintaining possession. I already talked about this. Total Football attacks with the ball. We do that but also we defend with it. That is more Cruyff’s philosophy or was atleast shown prominently in his reign as manager rather than Rinus’. In Total Football they rarely ever moved out of the opponents half when they had the ball. We do it frequently to 1. Suck the midfielders/defenders of the opponent deeper 2. Re-organise our attack. That is something I don’t see much in Total Football. Also the tempo and pace of the game flowed much more differently. IMO that’s what I was talking about in my first post as well, we have ofcourse taken the basic passing and possession style from Total Football but we pay such a great emphasis on possession which has not been done by any other team before. This was always the inspiration of Cruyff (atleast in execution on the pitch)
In a similar way, the pressing play was never that good under Rinus, specially in his dutch teams. This is widely evident from their matches.Also I’d like to point you out on this one:
“Germans became the masters of position no doubt. But Again, it was Michels who applied it first when his tactical structure at Ajax changed from 4-2-4 to 4-3-3. Vasovic’ was the defender who moved forward turning the 4-3-3 to 3-4-3.”IMO you’re completely off here…Ze Germans started employing this very well (specially Der Kaiser) even as far back as 1970…much before he put this in any proper place.
From what I hear, he was doing this already in 1966 but was in a very raw state which sometimes worked and sometimes failed. I cannot validate this viewpoint however since I have limited experience for 1966 and of Bayern. (basically I got those tapes through my thorough search inspired by my love of El Salvador.)
Though I completely agree with this:
“Its not because we dont want to, but because we cant. Notice that when henry played instead of ronaldinho this season, he checked the box of switching to the centre and act as a pure striker (not a fake 9). But still Eto’o wasnt able to check the box he had to, when he switch to the flank. With Ibra in the selection next season, any doubts that this is one of the main reasons we brought him? Checking that missing box? You can successfully inheret in football, but you can never copy-paste.”
I was thinking the same thing as I was typing it but decided to include it anyway…Makes you think about how brilliant both those Dutch teams really were. (Ajax+Oranje)
It would be excellent to see more complete exchange of roles now. It is one of the primary reasons I’m excited about Ibra. (other than his clear ball-holding skills which will make him a superb forward pivot for us!)BTW I’ll really be looking forward to your article on this!
@Isaiah on Lobanovsky: I agree with your viewpoint, though I barely remember seeing his teams play I’ve surely read that he didn’t care about how the game looked aesthetically and he was totally strict in how his philosophy should be followed. His contribution to footballing science however is much noteworthy.
An Article I dug up on him: http://www1.uefa.com/news/kind=16/newsid=14700.html
Direct quote from the interview:
“uefa.com Magazine: Some criticise your teams for not playing attractive football. Do you think that football should be attractive first and foremost?
Lobanovskiy: Attractive football? I do not understand this. There is not a club official or fan who would expect an attractive defeat from his team. Football is a war. Each of the opponents has only one purpose – to win.
uefa.com Magazine: So, you sacrifice attractive football for the result?
Lobanovskiy: Like they say, a good sculptor is the one who removes what is not necessary. Some things and some football players we will have to remove. Everything that does not fit my model of the game is needless. For example, one of the elements of the game is running with the ball. In modern football, you have to use it very rarely. The teams that use it 140 times in the game are very bad, the teams that do it 30 times are top class! Whoever doesn’t observe this, will most likely lose.”
Posted from
India -
Also Excellent find Maximus! Will give it a read now.
Posted from
India -
Ibra almost hurt his injured hand, trying to do a bicycle kick in training.
Posted from
United States -
Picture: http://www.sport.es/vivo/recursos/fotos/foto_380/foto_380915_CAS.jpg
Posted from
United States -
————-Pinto————-
Henrique-Muniesa-Fontas-Maxwell
———–Busquets————
—-J.Dos Santos—-Keita——
-Jeffren—–Bojan——Pedro-I’m starting to like our Copa Del Rey Chances. Especially if the above is our base squad, with guests appearances from Messi, Xavi, Yaya, and Puyol.
Posted from
United States -
Might have to scratch out Henrique, because EMD say he might probably get loaned out again.Which sucks IMO.
Posted from
United States -
Yeah not fair at all. I think Henrique needs at least 2 more games. The next friendly, I think he should start next to Puyol and maybe stay out there longer than the other CBs. He didn’t look bad at right back, either.
Posted from
United States -
Cesc Pistol, Yea I watched few games… To keep it short, The key question is:
Did Cruyff invented enough plug ins to consider his football methodology revolutionary, or he simply customized or at his best upgraded what already existed since Rinus Era?
I was just commenting on the things you believe Cruyff added to renus football approach. The libero was there since Rinus days with Ajax. And thats when Cruyff was playing there. So there is no reason to estimate that Rinus forgot about this role when he coached Barcelona. But could it be that he had no Koeman quality to lean on for example, so we didnt notice it as boldly as with Cruyff dream team? The same as the Idea of pressing the opponent team in their own half. The idea that Possession game is the best way to defend. even the most famous quote :”If you have the ball, they can’t score” which is strongly linked to Cruyff-the coach, was there decades before him. Rinus players spoke about it.
Now was it applied better in Cruyff teams than at Rinus teams? Very true. But is that intirely because Cruyff changed it? I doubt. The same as I believe the current team we have, is more possession oriented than thats of Cruyff. Our forwards are much better pressing the opponent defence and have better defensive contribution than Cruyff forwards. Unless if anyone saw Romario and Stoichkov having better defensive qualities than Eto’o and Henry. or Bakero-Beguiristain-Amor-pep were better (all together) in maintaining possession than Messi-Iniesta-Xavi-Yaya. Even sergi on the Left fullback was not contributing (nor fitting) to the high pressure game as Alves. Sergi was a pure WB but he is far from being that half fb-half wb-half LM-half LW – playmaker that alves is.
Add to that a slightly different tactical structure than that applied in cruyff days.
Now will that makes Pep a revolutionary genius over Cruyff?
Adding to all that the fact that we are only talking about what we see. What about the major part of teams Building? The part that goes behind the scene. Barcelona now is the living example of the way Rinus see football. Training drills with balls for instance, who introduced that to Barcelona? Of course we are applying more science now but so did France in world cup 1998. I belive science is more the role now in football, not the exception. So I see us introducing this to our game with Pep just as a modern approach applied almost everywhere, rather than getting it from the pioneers. Everything else has a Rinus stamp. I recommend that you read Rinus books, you will think he is talking about Barcelona 2009, the treble winners.
Rome was not built in one day. Everything develops and mature with time. Mainly systems and methods. But Bridgestone, no matter how good the tires they produce are. They cant get the same credit as the people who initially invented the Wheel. So because the two do not belong to the same category, we can NOT compare them, nor weigh their contributions on the same scale.
But we will agree not to agree.
And Isaiah, with his driven, Rotation sense, Passionate approach, and dedication to attractive football, Pep is very far of being Pragmatic. He is more a “reasonable – to some extend” Than pragmatic. And i think the loss against Milan in the CL final is something he has in mind all the time, It make him Caution, in a good way most of the times.
Posted from
Sweden -
Alright, no more long comments from my behalf, no matter how tempting CP comments will be!
Posted from
Sweden -
It seems like Henrique will be loaned out again and Mata seems to be on his way..both of them suck!
Posted from
United States -
Haha, yeah I agree let’s end with the long comments now.
Just saying though, that Ramzi I agree with you and your view. Cruyff did not do anything revolutionary. As Lobanovsky was said in his interview, the last revolution was in the 70’s. What a glorius period that was when such different schools of thought clashed in one tournament…
As I was saying, IMO you aren’t seeing it in the Barca context. Is Barca’s football ideology revolutionary? No. But it is a very effective and aesthetic amalgamation of various footballing concepts (dutch, brazilian, argentinian etc.) with a little bit of Catalan flavour and inspiration from the Basque ferocity. That is what is Barca’s ideology. That is what Cruyff rather than Rinus pioneered. That is the essence of what I was saying. Unlike Rinus, Cruyff did not re-invent the wheel he added other concepts and made it better. He made what is so uniquely ours.
And BTW Cruyff was coaching even while he was playing. He was more influential then Rinus for Barca even them. Just ask Rinus about who got Neeskens to Barca
Posted from
India -
*then not them…
BTW I was just checking out a some Barca sites and found this http://www.fcbarcelonanews.com/ Very similar to fcb transfers but we all know which one was the original
Check out the blogs section, it’s not bad imo…the special thing I found was the blog by Grif D.
http://www.fcbarcelonanews.com/foundations-the-midfield/
Seems like we have found some competition… And his new one:
http://www.fcbarcelonanews.com/filling-the-holes-part-1/
Check out the comment by ‘Snyde’, so true.Posted from
India -
BTW What does ‘getting hectored’ mean? Always see it being used around here..
Posted from
India -
Damn it Eklavya, we told you to reduce your Hector pill dosage, not to stop taking them all together. Chill!
Anyways, I’ve been pretty busy lately so I have not been able to join the Ramzi/Cesc Pistol party
. I haven’t read the books and I am too young to have seen the Ajax and Munich teams of the 70’s so I’ll skip that part even though I do know the original Dream Team and Cruyff the coach pretty well. Either way, rather than argue about the origins, I’d rather talk about the present state of the Barca system’s evolution. Regarding switching positions along the front line, I think Pep is more pragmatic (practical may be a better word) than he is given credit for. This is not done for the sake of doing it. There are specific reasons for the switches.
- When we go into the False 9 look (see my huge post a few topics back but I’ll be brief), it is primarily to outnumber an opponent in the midfield and take control of the middle. This look is the anti-double pivot. A triangle of Messi, Iniesta, and Xavi formed around the two pivots. Meanwhile the strikers on the wing are part decoy to keep the fullbacks away from the center (and also defensively, unable to bomb forward as the traditional 4-4-2 double pivot requires) so Messi can run at the bigger, slower CB’s in space, but also are meant to get one on one looks against the FB’s (see Henry frequently getting looks one on one on Ramos and frequently skinning him against RM). This is something in which Ibra can help a lot because he can play both the False 9 (very similar to his role at Inter) and on the wing where he is a much bigger threat than Samu. So, its not switching for the sake of switching in this case.
- The key to the switching IMO is the same as in American football: mismatches. All of our forwards offer different characteristics so Pep looks at those characteristics to see where they would be most effective. Probably the biggest reason we are able to do this much more often than the Dream Team is that we have a human mismatch in Messi. If the opposing team has a bigger, more physical but slower fullback, watch how Messi always ends up being matched up against him at some point, even on the left. I remember in the first game against Sevilla, Mosquera was matched up with Henry on the left. Henry got some one on one looks but either turned them down or was pushed off. We kept giving him the same look, lulling them to sleep until all of a sudden Messi popped up on the left and got two one on ones, skinned Mosquera and ended up with very good shots on goal that could easily have been goals had it not been for two great Palop saves.
The same applies for Henry, if a smaller more agile defender is employed, Henry can out physical him or take him out with his directness. Ibra will add immensely to this because he can play both wings well. His physicality and size not to mention his technique will provide for loads of mismatches.
- The third reason is to give different looks. Imagine chasing the sleek, agile Messi on one play and suddenly you are facing a 6′4 muscle bound manbeast with ballerina feet the next. It will drive defenders nuts. Also, it will give defenders the tendency to worry more about where the forwards are allowing them to forget about the Keita’s, Yaya’s, and Xavi’s crashing the box from midfield However, if the forwards already have mismatches, I expect Pep to stick to them instead of doing this.
Posted from
United States -
CP- being Hectored is used in reference to Kevin and Isaiah’s conspiracy against me to put up a new post right after I have posted a particularly long and insightful (in my eyes, to others it may just be long winded
) comment therefore rendering my comment useless and forgotten. If you are the last commenter before a new post is put up, you have been Hectored. They are evil, remember that . BTW, I really enjoyed that Grif D. article. Very good observation although a big question is what happens when Iniesta comes back. It would further explain the Zlatan acquisition though since as a true forward pivot and an exceptional one at that, he would be ideal to provide Messi with that forward outlet between the CB and D-Mid. If the opposing team tries to resolve this by going double pivot, like he said, we can just go False 9. With Xavi, Iniesta, and Messi I just can’t see how a double pivot can counter that formation. I’ve tried breaking it down in my head by I just can’t find a solution.
PS I think it is about time for Kevin to post the game review (now that I have not one but two long posts) expect to see a live example of Hectoring soon.
Posted from
United States -
See? I just got Hectored
.*Shakes fist at Isaiah and Kevin*
Posted from
United States -
Excellent posts Hector, I see your points, I agree with them all specially about what Ibra gives us in terms of tactical options. I see most average cules fail to see this and go by his reputation in the English press. Seems like I’ve found a new home here with fellow thinkers
BTW I got ‘Hectored’ too,
my solution: repost!Posted from
India -
I wanna be hectored too ;(
guys, remember etoo scored in the final vs manchester playing right wing.
long life to samuel eto’o, bring on the ibra times!!
Posted from
United States -
build the statue, make iniesta happy, and *then* move on…
Posted from
United States -
About 10 hours left before kickoff right guys. I was an hour late for the sounders game so I wanna make sure the game is tonight right?. appreciate any help.
Posted from
United States -
Corioliss are getting a reputation for making flat irons that are ‘must have’ fashion accessories, so good do they look. But getting beautiful, shiny hair using a hair straightener isn’t about how it looks; it’s about how it performs. So how does a Corioliss flat iron ’shape up’?
Posted from
Australia
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