Comments on: Moneyball: Barcelona ups the ante http://barcelona.theoffside.com/barcelona/moneyball-barcelona-ups-the-ante.html News from FC Barcelona and the Nou Camp Thu, 26 Nov 2009 16:31:45 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Linda http://barcelona.theoffside.com/barcelona/moneyball-barcelona-ups-the-ante.html#comment-6231 Linda Fri, 19 Oct 2007 00:02:47 +0000 http://barcelona.theoffside.com/barcelona/moneyball-barcelona-ups-the-ante.html#comment-6231 Ciaran is correct. Those are the facts I'm talking about. And yeah, while I'm okay with Cesc and Pique (who only left because Laporta hates his dad), nobody should get away with joining The Enemy (you know, that one). Isaiah, I agree with you about 18 being a proper age. The pressure and expectation at big clubs is too much for most 16 year olds. Unfortunately, my Spanish is minimal, but as far as I can make out, while there was no professional employment contract, there probably was a contract which obliged Merida to stay in the youth system at least until he turned 16. Ciaran is correct. Those are the facts I’m talking about. And yeah, while I’m okay with Cesc and Pique (who only left because Laporta hates his dad), nobody should get away with joining The Enemy (you know, that one).

Isaiah, I agree with you about 18 being a proper age. The pressure and expectation at big clubs is too much for most 16 year olds.

Unfortunately, my Spanish is minimal, but as far as I can make out, while there was no professional employment contract, there probably was a contract which obliged Merida to stay in the youth system at least until he turned 16.

]]> By: Ciaran http://barcelona.theoffside.com/barcelona/moneyball-barcelona-ups-the-ante.html#comment-6224 Ciaran Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:15:35 +0000 http://barcelona.theoffside.com/barcelona/moneyball-barcelona-ups-the-ante.html#comment-6224 Didn't Fran Merida go missing for a few weeks and then turn up at Arsenal? At the time it was reported that he didn't turn up after his agent advised him not to and then jumped ship. Barca were supposedly compensated for Cesc's departure. Arsenal paid 700,000 for him and waived payment still due on Overmars at the time. There is a difference between the way Merida left and Cesc. Because of this I wouldn't have a problem in welcoming back Cesc at a later date, as with Pique(if he progresses enough). I wouldn't however welcome Merida so quickly. FYI i still wouldn't want any of our Cantera joining the enemy. Didn’t Fran Merida go missing for a few weeks and then turn up at Arsenal? At the time it was reported that he didn’t turn up after his agent advised him not to and then jumped ship.
Barca were supposedly compensated for Cesc’s departure. Arsenal paid 700,000 for him and waived payment still due on Overmars at the time. There is a difference between the way Merida left and Cesc. Because of this I wouldn’t have a problem in welcoming back Cesc at a later date, as with Pique(if he progresses enough). I wouldn’t however welcome Merida so quickly.
FYI i still wouldn’t want any of our Cantera joining the enemy.

]]> By: Isaiah http://barcelona.theoffside.com/barcelona/moneyball-barcelona-ups-the-ante.html#comment-6220 Isaiah Thu, 18 Oct 2007 14:43:09 +0000 http://barcelona.theoffside.com/barcelona/moneyball-barcelona-ups-the-ante.html#comment-6220 But, Ryan, as a linguist, can you confirm what that article says is how I translate it? Or disconfirm...which totally isn't a word but should be. But, Ryan, as a linguist, can you confirm what that article says is how I translate it? Or disconfirm…which totally isn’t a word but should be.

]]> By: Ryan http://barcelona.theoffside.com/barcelona/moneyball-barcelona-ups-the-ante.html#comment-6219 Ryan Thu, 18 Oct 2007 13:46:27 +0000 http://barcelona.theoffside.com/barcelona/moneyball-barcelona-ups-the-ante.html#comment-6219 The reason this sometimes becomes an issue in Spain is because of the cantera system that is so widely regarded in Spain. Aside from the Basques who basically ONLY use the cantera's, most clubs like Barça, Madrid, and Sevilla bring up kids through the cantera system and integrate them into the team. Most then leave the first team after a few years if they want to test the international waters. However, in these cases with Cesc and Merida,they left early, and either under a contract or not under one. I'm not a laywer, I'm a linguist, so I can't commentate more on the law aspect of it. The reason this sometimes becomes an issue in Spain is because of the cantera system that is so widely regarded in Spain. Aside from the Basques who basically ONLY use the cantera’s, most clubs like Barça, Madrid, and Sevilla bring up kids through the cantera system and integrate them into the team. Most then leave the first team after a few years if they want to test the international waters.

However, in these cases with Cesc and Merida,they left early, and either under a contract or not under one.

I’m not a laywer, I’m a linguist, so I can’t commentate more on the law aspect of it.

]]> By: Isaiah http://barcelona.theoffside.com/barcelona/moneyball-barcelona-ups-the-ante.html#comment-6218 Isaiah Thu, 18 Oct 2007 13:24:33 +0000 http://barcelona.theoffside.com/barcelona/moneyball-barcelona-ups-the-ante.html#comment-6218 Linda: Maybe I mistranslated this, but I'll post what I got out of the El Pais article you linked: <em>"Mérida llegó al Arsenal tras pedir al Barcelona su baja federativa cuando aún tenía 15 años. Debido a su edad, el club no tuvo más remedio que dársela, ya que ningún contrato profesional ataba al jugador a la entidad."</em>\ Translation: "Merida arrived at Arsenal after asking Barcelona for a release when he was just 15 years old. Because of his age, Barca had no choice but to grant it, since no professional contract tied Merida to the club." I don't have a lawyer hat, so I can't say what that really means, legally, but what it <em>seems</em> to mean is there was no contract, pre- or otherwise. Am I interpreting this incorrectly? Merida was legally free to do whatever he wanted, so how come Barca had legal recourse? The Cesc case is cleared up by that article, though, so thanks for that. I'd forgotten there was a fee paid. Sorta. Linda: Maybe I mistranslated this, but I’ll post what I got out of the El Pais article you linked:

“Mérida llegó al Arsenal tras pedir al Barcelona su baja federativa cuando aún tenía 15 años. Debido a su edad, el club no tuvo más remedio que dársela, ya que ningún contrato profesional ataba al jugador a la entidad.”\

Translation: “Merida arrived at Arsenal after asking Barcelona for a release when he was just 15 years old. Because of his age, Barca had no choice but to grant it, since no professional contract tied Merida to the club.”

I don’t have a lawyer hat, so I can’t say what that really means, legally, but what it seems to mean is there was no contract, pre- or otherwise. Am I interpreting this incorrectly? Merida was legally free to do whatever he wanted, so how come Barca had legal recourse?

The Cesc case is cleared up by that article, though, so thanks for that. I’d forgotten there was a fee paid. Sorta.

]]> By: Isaiah http://barcelona.theoffside.com/barcelona/moneyball-barcelona-ups-the-ante.html#comment-6216 Isaiah Thu, 18 Oct 2007 13:00:41 +0000 http://barcelona.theoffside.com/barcelona/moneyball-barcelona-ups-the-ante.html#comment-6216 Jan, thanks for the compliment. Glad you liked the post. You're quite right about the biggest clubs holding onto their youngsters a little longer. I understand the desire to get the most out of your youth products, but what of clubs like Liverpool and ManU who have rosters the size of small countries? Check out <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_united#First-team_squad" rel="nofollow">ManU's squad</a> size if you don't believe me. Even compared to a squad like FCB's it's large. It's a drain on the overall talent level in the league, leaving teams like Levante, Derby, etc without the resources to contract players good enough to beat the bigger teams, whose "injury crisis" is only an issue if they're playing a similarly endowed team. I like that Barca doesn't have a massive squad and that a bunch of the starters come from the youth ranks and I hope that we don't get away from that because a few players, like Cesc and Merida, were drawn away before they could sign. Messi, Bojan, and Gio all have stuck around in recent years (and Iniesta, really, since he's only 23), so there isn't some sort of hole created by these players leaving. Still a consensus age across the board should be made mandatory and 18 makes sense to me. I'm not into forcing 16 year olds to perform at the highest level because they will, more often than not, fail. So 18 should be the FIFA rule, which would match the highest age requirement in the world, I would imagine. Now, that doesn't mean first team football can't be achieved before 18, but it doesn't really make sense to thrust kids into the spotlight if you don't have to. For every Messi that appears, you get like 5 Freddy Adus. Though, to be honest, there have been quite a few good players playing before they're 18, but the pressure is ridiculous for 16 year olds. Jan, thanks for the compliment. Glad you liked the post. You’re quite right about the biggest clubs holding onto their youngsters a little longer. I understand the desire to get the most out of your youth products, but what of clubs like Liverpool and ManU who have rosters the size of small countries? Check out ManU’s squad size if you don’t believe me. Even compared to a squad like FCB’s it’s large. It’s a drain on the overall talent level in the league, leaving teams like Levante, Derby, etc without the resources to contract players good enough to beat the bigger teams, whose “injury crisis” is only an issue if they’re playing a similarly endowed team.

I like that Barca doesn’t have a massive squad and that a bunch of the starters come from the youth ranks and I hope that we don’t get away from that because a few players, like Cesc and Merida, were drawn away before they could sign. Messi, Bojan, and Gio all have stuck around in recent years (and Iniesta, really, since he’s only 23), so there isn’t some sort of hole created by these players leaving.

Still a consensus age across the board should be made mandatory and 18 makes sense to me. I’m not into forcing 16 year olds to perform at the highest level because they will, more often than not, fail. So 18 should be the FIFA rule, which would match the highest age requirement in the world, I would imagine. Now, that doesn’t mean first team football can’t be achieved before 18, but it doesn’t really make sense to thrust kids into the spotlight if you don’t have to. For every Messi that appears, you get like 5 Freddy Adus. Though, to be honest, there have been quite a few good players playing before they’re 18, but the pressure is ridiculous for 16 year olds.

]]> By: Linda http://barcelona.theoffside.com/barcelona/moneyball-barcelona-ups-the-ante.html#comment-6214 Linda Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:51:01 +0000 http://barcelona.theoffside.com/barcelona/moneyball-barcelona-ups-the-ante.html#comment-6214 <i>but now Joan Laporta is mixing things up and making headlines when he should be shutting his mouth and hoping everyone comes back from international duty healthy.</i> Took the words right out of my mouth. Going to have to disagree with you completely over the Merida case, though. (By the way, the reason Cesc's case didn't go to court is because Arsenal waived quite a bit of the fee for Gio van Bronckhorst going the other way - because they knew they were the party who had erred.) Anyhow, taking my 'football fan' hat off and putting on my 'lawyer in training' hat on for a bit: a 'pre-contract agreement' in this context is a legal oxymoron. I presume what Barca had with Merida was a contract, which, while not containing professional terms since that would not have been effective, obliged him to perhaps stay at Barca for a certain length of time, if not sign professional terms with the club. So it's logical that his actions in breach of the terms has led to damages being awarded against him. The Merida case is also especially severe because of its bizarre facts: http://www.elpais.com/articulo/deportes/Jaque/fuga/canteranos/elpepudep/20071010elpepidep_1/Tes The youth team is supposed to develop top players for Barca, not Liverpool or Arsenal, or anybody else, for that matter. :D but now Joan Laporta is mixing things up and making headlines when he should be shutting his mouth and hoping everyone comes back from international duty healthy.
Took the words right out of my mouth.

Going to have to disagree with you completely over the Merida case, though.

(By the way, the reason Cesc’s case didn’t go to court is because Arsenal waived quite a bit of the fee for Gio van Bronckhorst going the other way – because they knew they were the party who had erred.)

Anyhow, taking my ‘football fan’ hat off and putting on my ‘lawyer in training’ hat on for a bit: a ‘pre-contract agreement’ in this context is a legal oxymoron. I presume what Barca had with Merida was a contract, which, while not containing professional terms since that would not have been effective, obliged him to perhaps stay at Barca for a certain length of time, if not sign professional terms with the club. So it’s logical that his actions in breach of the terms has led to damages being awarded against him.

The Merida case is also especially severe because of its bizarre facts: http://www.elpais.com/articulo/deportes/Jaque/fuga/canteranos/elpepudep/20071010elpepidep_1/Tes

The youth team is supposed to develop top players for Barca, not Liverpool or Arsenal, or anybody else, for that matter. :D

]]> By: Jan http://barcelona.theoffside.com/barcelona/moneyball-barcelona-ups-the-ante.html#comment-6201 Jan Thu, 18 Oct 2007 06:33:15 +0000 http://barcelona.theoffside.com/barcelona/moneyball-barcelona-ups-the-ante.html#comment-6201 Great post! It seems the world's biggest clubs are now also competing for the world's best talents to save enormous transfer fees. These fine talents will no longer enrich a small league/small club with their skills. Instead they will more and more only come from the bench of Arsenal, Barca etc. With the exception of late bloomers I guess. About the legal stuff: I think the FIFA has indeed a world wide rule about the minimum age a player can sign a contract (hence making him a professional footballer) with a club. But I'm not sure either whether they could interfere with pre-contract agreements. I guess such a 'letter of intent' has been / must be signed by the parents and not the underaged child anyway? And I doubt this is common practise or even allowed in other countries. Great post!

It seems the world’s biggest clubs are now also competing for the world’s best talents to save enormous transfer fees. These fine talents will no longer enrich a small league/small club with their skills. Instead they will more and more only come from the bench of Arsenal, Barca etc. With the exception of late bloomers I guess.

About the legal stuff:
I think the FIFA has indeed a world wide rule about the minimum age a player can sign a contract (hence making him a professional footballer) with a club. But I’m not sure either whether they could interfere with pre-contract agreements. I guess such a ‘letter of intent’ has been / must be signed by the parents and not the underaged child anyway? And I doubt this is common practise or even allowed in other countries.

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