Some thoughts before the real thoughts
By: Isaiah | December 17th, 2007You’d think it’d be hard to organize your thoughts before such a huge game as the one coming up this weekend, but the reality is that it’s extremely easy: derby derby derby derby derby.
Think of it this way: This is your brain; this is your brain on derby:
I watched the RM-Osasuna game yesterday (it’s being replayed at 9pm today on GolTV) and I found myself wondering exactly how Madrid fans think they’ll ever beat Barcelona. I guess it takes Ray Hudson’s inability to find fault in Madrid’s players…the man droned on and on about how the gulf in quality, in class, in dick size, whatever, between Madrid and Osasuna was so great that regardless of what they did, Madrid would win the game and subsequently would be favorites to win the title. But why? What demonstration have they given that they are the sexy, brilliant squad that everyone says they are? Are they solid and talented? Absolutely. You don’t get this far in the league and Champions League without being good. Have they hit their top form? I don’t think so and I’m assuming that Madrid fans hope they haven’t (I, for one, hope they have). And that is suggestive of the fact that they’re really not as good as people say they are. At least not right now.
Watching that Osasuna game, I was struck by how porous, how bad their defense was. Even Sergio Ramos looked lost and befuddled by the head-on runs that Carlos Vela was confronting him with throughout the game. Only a lack of presence in the box kept them from scoring bucketloads of goals. It’s probably the only bit of analysis Ray Hudson got right: “Dady is terrible tonight.” A much, much shorter Cannavaro kept Dady, who looked like he’s a Cape Verdeian Peter Crouch (he’s 6′3″), completely in check, whether through the air or on the ground. But every time the ball got near the box, there were shooting and passing chances that Osasuna, with a weak attacking unit (16 goals scored, T-11th in the league), couldn’t take advantage of. Barcelona, however, has a fantastic attacking unit (27 goals scored, 3rd in the league) and will not miss as many chances, especially not with Eto’o returning and firing on all cylinders, if his performance against Valencia is any indication.
Another thought was that despite their obvious attacking abilities (33 goals scored, 1st in the league), RM relies very heavily on controlling the middle of the field and spreading from there. Robinho and Sneijder manage well on the wings, but rarely does the ball sweep up the wings, cross into the middle, and end up in the back of the net. They look very much like Barcelona in their lack of aerial attacks, though RVN is certainly handy when it comes to heading (note his goal against Osasuna). Perhaps Corey and Steve over at the RM Offside have different thoughts about this, but it seems to me that Madrid will have quite a time getting anything going offensively against Barcelona simply because Barca has the defensive talent to man-mark the hell out of RVN and Raul, while cutting Guti/Sneijder/etc off in the middle thanks to a young man by the name of Yaya Toure.
That’s just a partial thought before I really delve into in the mother of all previews later this week.
But what does Hristo Stoichkov think about all this? That’s the important question. Well, he says it’s absolutely assured that Barca will win: Spanish; English. I think it’s important to point out that the badly translated title should actually be “Barca will win” because “fixed” in English suggests corruption. That’s not what “fijo” means, at least not in this case…
By the way, Stoichkov’s blog is pretty good…
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EMD just posted this comparison of the Barca-RM players, as done by ex players from both teams:
I think it’s fair to say that the Barca players got a little bit overrated in defense, but look at the Ronaldinho-Raul comparison. Besides the fact that it’s hard to compare those two players because they play different positions, I have to laugh at the idea that Raul is better than Ronnie. Silly, I think. Raul is having a good year, but not so good as to think that he has more talent than Ronnie. “R10″ isn’t a goalscorer, really, he’s a creator, though he also benefits from fantastic help in the midfield.
Personally, here’s how I see it:
Valdes 8 - 10 Casillas
Puyol 8 - 9 Sergio Ramos
Marquez 7.5 - 8 Cannavaro
Milito 9 - 8 Pepe
Abidal 8 - 6.5 Heinze (I told you dislike Heinze!)
Toure 9 - 8 Diarra
Xavi 8 - 8 Sneijder
Deco 9 - 8 Guti
Iniesta 9 - 9 Robinho
Eto’o 10 - 9 RVN
Ronaldinho 9 - 8 RaulTotal:
Barcelona 94.5 - 91.5 Real MadridIf Messi were in this instead of Iniesta, that’s an extra point for the cules. Robben adds something too, for RM, but he hasn’t been healthy for a decade or so…I’d like to point that Casillas is somehow underrated by these guys. They’re tied? Seriously, Pello Artola? Seriously? No way. Iker may be merengue hasta la muerte, but I respect his abilities. Unlike Raul. I just dislike that cockhead.
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I would disagree with these ratings because its hard to compare Xavi to Sneijder, or Iniesta to Robinho. Robinho has much more skill with the ball then Iniesta, but Iniesta has much better passing ability and off the ball movement. So what dictate comparing a left winger with a central midfielder who is forced to play on the left sometimes?
As for Abidal, I do not discredit his defending, its his lack on concentration last year for Lyon that was so frustrated. He may play much better for Barca right now, but he is a player thats mind wanders, and in a year or 2 when he wants to return to Lyon to finish his career, his performances will drop as he thinks of his next move. If he does not move forward often then he is pretty solid.
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Corey, I hope you’re wrong about Abidal! So far he’s shown extreme consistency for Barca; if that’s just his MO, well, dammit.
I thought Sneijder was a central midfielder? Is that not the case? Every time I’ve seen RM play and he’s been on the field, he’s been playing exactly the role that Xavi plays for Barcelona…Is that just the effect of having a small sample?
I think you can compare Iniesta and Robinho in the sense of their relative attributes, but you’re right that you can’t directly compare them. Your point about Robinho being good (or great) with the ball is well taken, however, and I think most people who read this blog will agree, Iniesta’s on-the-ball skills are underrated by almost everyone who hasn’t seen him often. It’s so rare that he loses the ball, but he’s not flashy like Robinho, who can do the tricky stepovers (probably better than anyone else, actually), but Iniesta is extremely good on the ball. Extremely. I was skeptical at first, thinking he was another Xavi clone, but I’ve grown to realize that he can run through defenses whenever he wants (ex: winning that penalty against Depor), even in tight spaces. That he passes more often than he takes on defenders is a positive aspect to Barcelona’s game, in my mind. If Robinho learned to pass just a bit better or more often, holy crapola…You’d see his goal returns diminish slightly, but the team would score even more than it already does. Not that Robinho isn’t a good passer. I’ve seen him make incisive and wonderful passes quite a few times (mostly for Brazil), so I know he’s underrated in that regard too.
That’s just how I see it. What Robinho lacks in his game, Iniesta has in spades, but what Iniesta lacks in his game, Robinho also has in great quantity, so that’s why I put it as a wash. 9-9, both bordering on 10s.
Besides a win, of course, I want to see Heinze fail miserably. And while this would cause RM to get another defender and improve their team, it would cause me untold glee. I’ve been anti-Heinze for years now, so it’s not an anti-RM thing; when he was at ManU I used to talk to some buddies of mine about how shitty he was. “Pulling a Heinze” was to be out of position and have to fly in, hair a-flyin’ in all directions. Remember Copa America? Ick he was terrible for Argentina most of the time. Milito covered for him so well in a couple of those games, which is, by the way, when I realized why Barca bought him. I don’t think Heinze’s injuries have helped him, either. I’ll admit that he’s good, of course, a professional who can or at least could play at a high level. You don’t become an albiceleste without being talented, it’s just that I think his time is done.
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Man, it’s totally time for a new post…
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Haha, Heinze is a dirty player and thats how he makes up for his lack of positioning and overall lack of skill. But sometimes you need that on your team. I dont think he will fail miserably since he will not be up against Messi, so either Gio or Ronnie will get hacked to death.
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I have to throw in a couple quick cents before your pre-view, Isaiah (I’m thinking since you cules are hosting this el gran clasico, it seems fitting that your forum should host the preview/debate). Since the title of this entry was focused on defense, I’ll start there. I’ve been a fly on the wall to this debate and feel that you’ve all pretty much covered the breakdown. I’d like to add one thing, however, about Puyol. As a fan not just of Real Madrid, but of Spanish football, and of Spain, for a long time Puyol has been, though a cule, one of my favorite football players. Seeing Ramos beside him in the World Cup was seeing half of my dream defense on the field together - pure rapture. However, from what I’ve seen, this season Puyol has not been himself. Perhaps injuries play a part in that, or that he’s been needed at left back, or that Milito is slowly becoming the anchor of Barce’s D (and I rate Milito very highly as well, though I like him very little - without question him and Toure were some of the most brilliant acquisitions of the summer market). What I’ve noticed from Puyol that used to never happen: he get’s caught out of position, running up for a challenge and then hesitating as they play the ball past him, and he’s been rash in his tackles. Some of the cards I’ve seen him take this season are down right foolish. So while I think it would be absolutely silly to play Rafa in the center (c’mon, we’ve all seen his form plummet in the last two seasons, and Ruud would gladly accept the gifts Marquez would give him), Puyol might not be the right choice either. Perhaps a Thuram/Milito centre combo with Puyol on the left would be most effective against us, which is exactly what I hope not to see.
However, the place that this game will be decided, I predict, will be in the midfield. Barce without question have the advantage there (Sneijder is no Xavi) in that they’ll win more posession. But Madrid will look to take fast advantage of Barce’s pressing midfield (like they did last season), and we have players who know how to take advantage of gaffs in that regard. It’ll be a great game no matter what, and I’ll hold off on further comments until either you or Corey put up an official preview.
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Oh, and concerning Madrid’s defense, I think that since Messi’s out, Marcelo’s in. That’s that. although no one on our team (or in the league, really) if fully equiped to handle Messi, Marcelo would not even present a stumbling block. With Messi out of the equation however, as I mentioned on the Madrid post, I think that Marcelo might be our point of entry through Barce’s midfield.
And a quick word about Heinze - yes, he’s a prat who deserves much of the abuse he receives. But in the end, a veteren defender who can play left and center back, who started his professional career in Spain, and who has regularly represented his country on the highest platforms - that’s never a bad acquisition, even if he’s primarily used as a backup.
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Slightly off-topic discussion on the Copa del Rey:
Have you looked at the tournament format!? To reach the final, we probably have to go through:
In order, Valencia –> Real Madrid (if not Sevilla) —> Villareal (if not Atletico Madrid) –> Final… FC Barcelona’s side of the tournament is packed!
(Check out the Wikipedia page on Copa del Rey for the tournament structure.)
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geez thats a tough road. why the hell do we get screwed in all competitions? the hardest group in the champions league, an incredibly tough run before madrid, now this.
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We have had a tough go of it too, if you look at that lineup, we have to go through Sevilla then possibly you or Valencia. Our route to the Copa del Rey is as difficult.
John, great stuff as usual, I still think Schuster will be a puss and put Heinze out there, but as I have debate with Isiaih, I have warmed to Marcelo more and more, not that I ever disliked him in the first place. Heinze never was and never will be a world beater, but what he can do well is what we need in a game like this. Either one will work though, although even though its a pipe dream, having Torres on the left is my preferred option. we do have a wealth of options this year dont we.
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Jake, I don’t buy any sort of “tough road” stuff because everyone has to play the same teams. Having to play us is no good either. Our season didn’t start Atletico then @Villareal; also, RM had @Espanyol, Depor, @Valencia, @Sevilla between October 20 and November 3. And that’s just the league (2 games against Olympiakos if you include the Nov 6 away game). It’s just that there’s such a high level all around that it seems unfair, but it’s not.
John, Puyol plays on the right. Abidal is our left back. That means that if Gio starts, as most newspapers are suggesting he will, then Puyol and Gio will be playing overlaps on that side against whoever you’ve put up there. And I trust Puyol to get back on defense from an opponents box because the man just doesn’t fail. That’s sort of his thing, you know. Sure, he gets caught out sometimes and he’ll have to watch that since Robinho isn’t a joke as an attacker, but you’re forgetting that Toure is the real deal in the center. He changes the defensive equation so much because it limits anyone’s ability to play balls in on the ground through the center.
However, if anyone has the offensive weapons to break down Barcelona, it’s the 3-pronged R-R-R attack of Rudy!Rudy!Rudy!, Raul, and Robinho simply because Robinho will have to be mark tightly (by Puyol) for most of the game, thus limiting his forward runs. If Zambrotta is on the field instead of Puyol, well, we’d just have to see how well he plays. He could turn in a sterling performance or come out flat…hard to say, you know?
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Yeah, I suppose Puyol would be good mark against Robinho(on the right - oops! I get turned around because I keep thinking of the pitch in terms of Madrid’s perspective), but this is why I keep pushing Marcelo. I feel like the two of them could kind of leap frog past defenders to push forward the attack - they play really well off of eachother. Yes, this will leave a gaping whole in our left flank, the kind that Giovanni will be glad to exploit, but Madrid will have to take some risks if they want to score against Barce. I’m a little frightened to see how well Henry and Eto’o link up - I’m already imagining Thiery knifing balls in from the left wing. Ugh.
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Wait….Henry and Eto’o? This can’t be true….do we have probable starting lineups yet? Man, that would rock the house, or be a big, giant bust. Won’t be anything in the middle, though.
There’s been some great stuff in these comments. I still think Dos Santos isn’t ready for this, but we’ll see.
Yaya is going to have to hang back a bit more than he customarily does, to keep us from getting snookered on Real counterattacks. My other worry is the from-distance shooting of Robinho and Van Nistelrooy.
Is it Sunday yet?
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When referncing “from-distance shooting” surely Julio Baptista strikes fear in the heart of cules! The only question is whether he or Guti will get the start.
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Isaiah, I was more thinking along the lines that we don’t get to focus as much on the madrid game, because the teams before are so tough, but I guess winning against hard teams is more of a morale booster than winning against crap ones. And I suppose everyone has to play them at some point or another. Still, there’s no denying that our champions league groups was pretty unlucky.
Hopefully Henry will start. The Premier League is very physical, and Madrid will be too, so that should make Henry look a bit better there. Also, I have a feeling in the back of my mind that he will really step up here. No matter what form he was in for Arsenal, he always seemed to step up against the likes of Chelsea, ManU and Liverpool. I think take the gamble with him.
I still have unbelievable faith that Yaya will play even better than he usually does. I remember watching him in the world cup. He played good against Serbia, and amazing against Argentina, so I think he is one of the players that surprises everyone in these games, even though we already know he is a god.
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Barcelona are far more athletic than real madrid. They are much more powerful and faster all over the pitch than real. i think that this will be one of the telling factors. If we are firing up front then this will be a good sunday…
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Hehe, Barca’s off to Scotland AGAIN! Drew Celtic at the Champs League.
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I know. hopefully not more anti-football. i guess that is alot better than arsenal, liverpool or roma.
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Fantastic, I think! (Jake, how’s that for a tough road!? Yay!)
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Guti has picked up a knock and is a doubt for the match
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I’m not sure that’s all that bad for Real…I’ve read he’s been far less than 100% lately. It also means Beast will start for sure.
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Celtic? Suh-weet! We’re through to the next round, I’d say. There are some great matchups in the first knockout round.
And I’m pretty happy not to have Guti in the side. He showed very well against us last year. I’ll take Baptista any day of the week.
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Yes! Yes! I repeat. Eto’o and Henry at the point. I’m with Jake. Henry is a big-match player who you have to put in the side, right from the start. Step on their throats right away and put them on their heels. With Eto’o and Henry pressing, and the control of the midfield sure to come from Deco, Iniesta and Yaya…
And if that doesn’t work, you have Ronaldinho, etc coming off the bench.
(The release from the home site….)
Henry available for SundayThierry Henry will be available to play against Real Madrid on Sunday. The French striker was passed fit by Club doctors on Thursday morning and could make his comeback to the squad.
According to the medical bulletin issued today, Henry has recovered from the back problem that has kept him sidelined for the last few weeks and Frank Rijkaard can now decide whether to include him in the squad for the big game.
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I can see the need for a preview here…I’m going to try to get one posted by early afternoon on Saturday (tomorrow). There’s so much to discuss…
I don’t want Henry starting; I want Dinho out there from the beginning. Come on, Rijkaard, give me what I’ve always wanted for Christmas: 3 strippers! Wait, no, um, I meant a beautiful victory against Madrid. Visca el Barca!
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Our road just got a whole lot easier. With eto’o back on form we could destroy anyone anyway. Some great matchups though- Arsenal-Milan, Liverpool-Inter, etc. Great to get some good teams out of the way. I think that with Henry and Eto’o, i think it all depends on whether they can work together. No doubts that Henry will step up. We can still play with ronnie starting though. A 4-3-3 with Yaya, Xavi and someone else in the middle. Or even a 4-2-4 with iniesta instead of Messi, but thats probably a bit too risky for Madrid.
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